Talk:Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography: Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

Canada Low‑importance

	Canada portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

France Low‑importance

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / European / French / Early Modern B‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	European military history task force
	French military history task force
	Early Modern warfare task force (c. 1500 – c. 1800)

A fact from Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 October 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire convinced several Iroquois tribes to ally with the French against the English in 1711 through song?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 17:12, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire convinced several Iroquois tribes to ally with the French against the English in 1711 through song? "This was strikingly demonstrated in August 1711. New France was being threatened with an English attack and Vaudreuil had summoned 800 Indians from a dozen different tribes to Montreal to renew the alliance with them. The crucial moment came during a banquet on 7 August when these allies were asked to declare themselves against the English. It was then that Joncaire and Michel Maray de La Chauvignerie, who served Longueuil as interpreter among the Onondagas, stood up before the assembly, brandished hatchets, and broke into the war song. Soon all the Indians joined in, thus asserting their solidarity with the French." from Zoltvany, Yves F. (1969). "Chabert de Joncaire, Louis-Thomas". Encyclopedia of Canadian Biography. Vol. 2.
- ALT1:... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire established Fort Niagara in 1720 by telling Iroquois chiefs that he wanted a house so he could visit them more often? "It was again thanks to Joncaire that New France was able to build a fort at Niagara, on Seneca territory, in 1720. [...] Early in 1720, Joncaire presented himself at their settlements and convened an assembly of the chiefs. When they had gathered he informed them that he had always derived much pleasure from his visits among them. In fact, he went on, he would come even more frequently if he had a house of his own to which he could withdraw. The chiefs replied that as one of their sons he was free to build a house for himself wherever he chose. [...] He hurried to Fort Frontenac, chose eight soldiers, and proceeded directly to Niagara." from the same source
- ALT2:... that Louis-Thomas Chabert de Joncaire used his fluent command of the Seneca language to negotiate the Great Peace of Montreal and establish Fort Niagara? "Joncaire, on the other, mastered [the Seneca] language and acquired a complete understanding of their mentality [...] Joncaire played a significant role in the discussions that led to the peace treaty of 1701" and ALT1 quote, from the same source

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Bettina (opera)

Created by MarkH21 (talk). Self-nominated at 11:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Reviewing... Flibirigit (talk) 19:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - ?
Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article was moved to mainspace on September 29 and nominated the same day. Length and sourcing are adequate for DYK. The article appears neutral in tone and no plagiarism issues were detected. No images are used in the article. QPQ requirement is complete. ALT0 and ALT1 are both interesting, mentioned inline and properly cited. ALT2 appears to be a combination of facts from separate sentences. In this case, the sentence that mentions his command of the Seneca language would need a citation directly at the end. I could approve the first two hooks, or wait for ALT2 also. Overall, the article is in good shape and I would enjoy seeing it on the main page Flibirigit (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Flibirigit (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Flibirigit: Thanks for the review! Yes, ALT2 is a combination of multiple facts which are all cited from the same source:

Joncaire, on the other, mastered [the Seneca] language and acquired a complete understanding of their mentality. He was thus in a position to render precious services to New France whenever there were negotiations to be conducted with this important tribe. [...] Joncaire played a significant role in the discussions that led to the peace treaty of 1701 [...] It was again thanks to Joncaire that New France was able to build a fort at Niagara, on Seneca territory, in 1720.
— Zoltvany, Yves F. (1969). "Chabert de Joncaire, Louis-Thomas". Encyclopedia of Canadian Biography. Vol. 2.

There are also other sources (e.g. this book also cited in the article) that support the same facts:

At Montreal, where he also had a home, he seemed ersatz Seneca, familiar with the language and key personalities, with a wife and words that had weight on both sides. During 1700–1701, he took a leading part in the complicated negotiations by which Canada brokered a general peace between its traditional Indian allies and the previously hostile Iroquois, and bound the Iroquois to neutrality in future British-French disputes. [...] Reaching the peak of his influence among the Western Iroquois, in 1720 Joncaire won permission to establish a trading post at the strategic lower end of the portage around Niagara Falls.
— Gallay, Alan (2015) [1996]. Colonial Wars of North America, 1512-1763. Routledge. p. 109. ISBN 9781317487197.

— MarkH₂₁^talk 20:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My only concern is that the sentence which says "The Seneca befriended and trusted Joncaire while Joncaire mastered the Seneca language" does not have a citation directly at the end of it. In other words, to show that ALT2 is cited, it needs to be clear where the citation is that says he had "fluent command of the Seneca language". Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 23:16, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Flibirigit: Oh you meant in the article itself! Sorry, I thought you meant in the DYK page here. That sentence is supposed to be cited to the same refs as the subsequent sentences, but I’ve explicitly done it now. Thanks! — MarkH₂₁^talk 23:27, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All three ALTs are now properly cited and verified, and the nomination adheres to all other DYK criteria. Flibirigit (talk) 00:15, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]